Lords Hansard text for 23 Jul 1996 = (160723-02)

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Lord=20 Dean of Beswick: My Lords, is the = Minister aware=20 that Mr. Noye, who, it is now established, was a police informer used by = the=20 police force, was involved in the most brutal murder of Constable = Fordham some=20 years ago, for which quite surprisingly he was acquitted? If Mr. Noye = was at=20 that time on the payroll of the police as an informer and bearing in = mind that=20 other officers are now being investigated officially about whether they = were=20 releasing information to people such as Mr. Noye, is it not possible = that one of=20 Constable Fordham's so-called colleagues tipped off Mr. Noye that he was = under=20 surveillance by Mr. Sanderson with regard to the Brink's-Mat robbery = which=20 presented him with the facilities and information to dispose of the = policeman=20 and murder him?=20

Baroness Blatch: My Lords,=20 I hope the House will understand that it would be quite improper for me = to=20 comment on any individual who might or might not be subject to a = possible=20 complaint against the police. Clearly laid down procedures for = investigating=20 complaints that the police have acted improperly are contained in Part = IX of the=20 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. The responsibility for ensuring = that=20 complaints are thoroughly investigated rests with the chief officers and = the=20 independent Police Complaints Authority. If an investigation of a = complaint=20 suggested criminal action by an officer, the matter would be referred to = the=20 Crown Prosecution Service to consider whether criminal proceedings=20

23 Jul 1996 : Column 1261

should be brought. I repeat that it would be improper for me to = comment=20 in this House on an individual case.=20

Lord=20 Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, is the = noble=20 Baroness aware that the case to which the noble Lord refers was an = extremely=20 serious matter and the police officer concerned was rightly convicted = and=20 sentenced to a substantial term of imprisonment? Does she agree that the = use of=20 informants is a matter of critical importance in dealing with serious = crime? Is=20 she further aware that this matter is carefully monitored by both the=20 inspectorate constabulary and chief officers to ensure that no = impropriety takes=20 place?=20

Baroness Blatch: My Lords,=20 I agree with the first comment made by the noble Lord and with the = second part=20 of the statement in that informants properly employed--I emphasise = properly=20 employed--consistent with all the regulations laid down, are essential = to=20 criminal investigation and combating crime. It is essential and the = police are=20 highly accountable for the way in which they exercise it.=20

Lord=20 McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the = Minister=20 was literally right when she replied to my noble friend that the = employment of=20 police informers is an operational matter for the police. But that is = not the=20 whole story, is it? Is it not the case that the principles which = underlie the=20 employment of police informers and the safeguards which are = necessary--for=20 example, to ensure that police informers do not also act as agents=20 provocateurs--are matters for the Secretary of State and for the = Government?=20

Baroness Blatch: My Lords,=20 the noble Lord makes an important point. First, the Home Office issued=20 guidelines in 1969 on the use of informants. They have been expanded and = were=20 supplemented in 1995 by ACPO. Both the Home Office and ACPO guidelines = make it=20 clear that on no account should an informant be permitted to act as = agent=20 provocateur, or incite or counsel another to commit an offence. Anyone = doing so=20 would himself be liable to prosecution.=20

Lord=20 McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I = should=20 know the answer to this, but are those guidelines publicly available?=20

Baroness Blatch: My Lords,=20 I am fairly certain that they are and, if they are, I shall let the = noble Lord=20 know. They must be available to the police so I am sure that they must = be a=20 public document.=20

Lord=20 Renton: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that = the=20 practice in the criminal courts in this country has for years been of = such a=20 kind as to prevent people from being wrongly convicted when there have = been=20 police informants, and that the courts frown upon agents provocateurs = and=20 require corroboration of a police informant's evidence before the jury = is told=20 that it is acceptable?=20

23 Jul 1996 : Column 1262

Baroness Blatch: My Lords,=20 my noble friend is right. The courts of course have a wide measure of = discretion=20 in exercising their powers to order the exclusion of evidence or to = direct an=20 acquittal where they believe that evidence has been collected in an = improper=20 way. That is always in the interests of justice for the person before = the court.=20

Lord=20 Dean of Beswick: My Lords--=20

Lord=20 Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I did = not want=20 my noble friend to close the debate. I hope that he will have the = opportunity to=20 come back in a second. I wanted to ask the Minister whether the = guidelines on=20 agents provocateurs apply not just to police informants but to local = authorities=20 which are employing children to go into supermarkets and tobacconists to = induce=20 retailers to sell cigarettes and drink?=20

Baroness Blatch: My=20 Lords, that matter is being reviewed. The use of under-age persons in = test=20 purchases is a matter for the police or, of course, for trading = standards=20 officers. They have to consider that those taking part would also be = liable to=20 prosecution. It is clearly important that the law is enforced = effectively, but=20 the prime consideration must at all times be the welfare of the = juveniles=20 themselves. Again, ACPO guidelines provide guidance on the use of = juveniles as=20 informants. That guidance is currently under review, as I said earlier. = It is=20 anticipated that more detailed advice on that issue will be produced, I = believe=20 by the end of the year.=20

Lord=20 Dean of Beswick: My Lords, in her = detailed reply=20 to me, the Minister missed the main thrust of my question. I said that = in a=20 recent trial when an officer was convicted, it was stated that Mr. Noye = was on=20 the police payroll as an informant. Was Mr. Noye a paid police informant = when he=20 killed Constable Fordham in a most brutal fashion? With him being a paid = police=20 informant, is it not possible that someone told him that he was under=20 surveillance, thus resulting in the death of an officer on duty? I am by = no=20 means satisfied that the answers I have received cover the point. I = think that=20 an innocent officer was butchered by someone who may well have been = tipped off=20 at the time.=20

Baroness Blatch: My=20 Lords, I have to repeat that it would be difficult for me in this House = to go=20 into the details of any particular personal case in the course of = answering a=20 Question. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, has already said = that that=20 murder was tried in court, the person was found guilty, went to prison = and=20 served a sentence. Without referring to the particular details, if the = noble=20 Lord is suggesting that the police acted improperly or that the system-- =

Lord=20 Dean of Beswick: A policeman.=20

Noble=20 Lords: Order!=20

23 Jul 1996 : Column 1263

Baroness Blatch: My=20 Lords, whether it is a policeman acting improperly or the police acting=20 improperly, if that forms the basis of a complaint my advice is that a = complaint=20 should be made and investigated.

Dual Carriageways: Traffic Signals

2.54 p.m.

Lord=20 Renton asked Her Majesty's Government:=20

The=20 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport = (Viscount=20 Goschen): My Lords, traffic signals should be = installed so that they are visible to both approaching and waiting = traffic. To=20 achieve that, and to be clear to which lane the signals apply, it is = necessary=20 and usual to place them both at the side and between the carriageways, = unless=20 the requirements of a particular site dictate otherwise.=20

Lord=20 Renton: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that = somewhat cautious reply. Is he aware that overhead lights should also be = placed=20 in the centre rather than at the sides of dual carriageways?=20

Viscount Goschen: My=20 Lords, I can confirm that in looking at the lighting of dual = carriageways and=20 motorways we aim for the most effective, economic, and environmentally = sensitive=20 approach. Indeed, putting lighting on the central reservation often = achieves=20 that. I can confirm that that is often also the most environmentally = acceptable=20 method.=20

Lord=20 Clinton-Davis: My Lords, can the Minister = indicate=20 whether junctions on dual carriageways constitute a particular hazard? = Does he=20 have any evidence to suggest that more or fewer accidents occurred at = junctions=20 on dual carriageways in 1995 than in 1994, when I think they amounted to = 6 per=20 cent. of the total of 4,034 fatal or serious injuries occurring on the = roads? If=20 junctions do constitute a serious hazard, can he say whether the = accidents are=20 speed related?=20

Viscount Goschen: My=20 Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord any more up-to-date statistics. = Clearly many=20 road safety issues centre on junctions. Of course when traffic is = travelling=20 fast that can be exacerbated. When people are speeding, obviously the = risk=20 increases in proportion. There is an issue relating to traffic lights on = higher=20 speed-limited roads. That is why the systems that we have introduced = take=20 account of traffic in a so-called dilemma zone when it is approaching = lights.=20

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